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Experimenters Turn a Smile Upside Down

Written by PETA | May 10, 2010

A new study that will probably leave you grimacing in frustration finds that mice make facial expressions when they’re in pain.

We certainly didn’t need any more evidence that these small animals are more than test tubes with whiskers and are capable of feeling pain and suffering. And it makes me wince to think about the horrible things they did to mice to elicit expressions like squeezed eyes and bulging cheeks that indicate “key signs of pain.”

For the study, mice were videotaped as they suffered after experimenters injected different noxious chemicals into their abdomens, ankles and paws, placed them on hotplates, placed their tails in hot water, put metal binder clips on the tips of their tails, and performed various surgeries on them without administering pain relief after the operations.

While, if anything, the results should bolster the argument that these sensitive, intelligent animals suffer like we do and should not be used in experiments, it appears that the self-interested authors of the study instead want to use the results to create a “pain scale” that can be used as a measuring tool for, you guessed it, more pain experiments on mice.


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World Science reports that the study’s authors declined its request to republish photos from the study, for fear of “the inflammatory effect such pictures might have on animal rights activists.” Gee, ya think? Luckily, WIRED published the heartbreaking photos here.

I hope this story inflames you enough to write to your Congressperson and urge him or her to support an amendment to the Animal Welfare Act to extend legal protections to the 100 million mice and rats who are languishing in U.S. laboratories and who currently receive absolutely no protection under the law.

Written by Alisa Mullins

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  • ocean17 says:

    “Name a single model available for studying the neurobiology of human pain.” medical textbooks illustrations MRIS images and other noninvasive imaging technology autopsies and postmortem studies. you can’t be serious.. and the people that “agree with your research” are insensitive insecure and confused individuals surely anyone whom would turn a blind eye to these sadistic and barbaric tortures would have to be a psychotic individual with precious little morals or grasp on reality.

  • ocean17 says:

    maureen thanks for the dose of commonsense and objectivity. kalimpa i do understand what you are saying. you are just playing stupid for your pat on the back and trying to justify the mindnumbingly cruel idiotic and barbaric junkscience vivisection animal torture. computer modeling covers a vast area of knowledge anywhere from a simple data base to unbelievably large programs that forcast weather and simulate nuclear explosions. “extrapolate downward” instead of “extrapolate upward”. simple the main concern here is to map and understand human pain pathways since you could not make such an ovbious and glaring connection you have in effect admitted that these unbelievabley cruel sadistic and barbarc tortures perfomed upon these innocent and sentient mice and rodents serve no useful purpose. you pretending not to understand simple concepts and ideas is also quite insane. and no this site does not paint a grimier picture of research than actually exists. if that were the case the doors to these top secret labs would have been open long ago.

  • maureen says:

    Kalama. I certainly do understand what you are saying.I do not have an obsessed need to make you wrong or myself right.I do recognize that some animal right activists portray a bleaker image of crueltyif you have ever seen an undercover video you would see researchers slappunchyell and inflict more pain than needed because an animal is tired of being experimented on you too would be miserable if kept in a tiny filthy cage all of your life only to be taken out and infused with a potent chemical that makes you sick and weak to the point you only wish death would come and when it does your back is broken instead of your neck by a researcher and left to die alone and in pain and then scooped up and thrown into the garbage that science has labeled you. Your wish is for me to accept your decision to inflict harm on a science project that has no moral or ethical value. Testing that has been repeated so many times that still has no validity. Hoping for the ONE CHANCE you might get a result you were looking for to say By George I Think I Got It so that you may continue to be funded with my tax dollars to see if you can get a second result. As with any science you may and will get inaccurate results but for the results you already have they do not need to be done over and over again to see that after a million times you are getting the same results. You are right on another point that you do not think science is portrayed accurately. NOR do I.In medical school live pigs are stabbed so you like minded individuals can try and save a life when you have tried and true alternate methods of testing. My point to you is the same as last you do not need a mouse rodent to figure out if and when a person is in mild to moderate pain!!!!! You know there is truth to what I have said because you acknowledged my comments. I am not the only one who is appalled by your ridiculous research Ocean 17 has commented on your research so so far it really has been the 3 of us bantering back and forth. If any one has not acknowledged what research has done is yourself you may turn a blind eye to the innocent lives that you claim the stark reality of what can and does happen in facilities is only to real. I am not trying to get you to agree with meI am only trying to make a valid point of view on the other end of the spectrum.Which I believe I have. Instead of dissecting meone should only look into oneself to find peace with what they have done in this life. I still will not give you the approval you are looking for. God if you believe has put his creatures here for a purpose. There is enough Human Suffering in this world that could use some research and that my friend takes a lot more courage to take on than a being a little larger than a DIGIT.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    Maureen You’ve just described the career of student with any science degree who fails to get a Ph.D. Even the chemists who test for allergens in our food are a part of this class. It has nothing to do with being taken seriously or the validity of one’s field. With a BS in Chemistry you’ll end up testing the pH of contact lens solution. With a Ph.D you’ll do novel research in whatever field you’re interested in. If you get a Ph.D. generally you take a postdoc in a lab that does something you’re interested in. NOT something just to get paid. If you aren’t interested the head researcher won’t want you since you won’t be motivated to put solid effort into their work. Granted since there’s competition you won’t always get your first choice but it’s rare for someone who wouldn’t do animal work to accept such work out of desperation. I find it humorous that you say no one takes bioscience degrees seriously especially considering the billions of dollars spent by the goverments of the world on such research. Especially since even PETA is funding bioscience research in vitro meat. I already know people agree with my research. The people who are treated by it do. The people who pay me to refine it do. The peers who review my journal articles do. The only reason I’m here is because I don’t think science is accurately portrayed on this blog. If you’d like me to stop posting there are a few ways Accept that in the interest of animal rights this site often paints a much grimier picture of research than is actually the case. Recognize that animal research at the very least has and does provide information that is actually useful. Recognize that in vitro research is often just as inaccurate as animal research. Admit that you just have no idea what I’m talking about especially since it’s extremely rude to insist I’m babbling “junkscience” when you clearly can’t even understand any of the examples I give and patently ignore them to boot. The only “sad” thing here is that you’re so obsessed with me needing to be wrong because of your personal ethics that you won’t take the time to even try and understand a thing I’ve said. If you had then why do none of your counters address anything I’ve said?

  • maureen says:

    Dear Ocean 17 I understand you 100 it is a shame Kalama is just using this blogand probably others to see if anyone will agree with her junkscience research. She is probably looking for a better job and wants someone to reconize her jarble to further her morbid inhumane experiments.With all the new technology out there it would seem to be more relevantwho knows maybe she has spent more time on this outdated research and does not know how to apply her work to new technology such as simulations. Maureen

  • maureen says:

    I cannot believe she is still at it. Let me say thiswhen a person graduates in biomed they believe they earned a right to get a well paying pat on the back kind of job. But in this instance we know that in order for you to move ahead you must take any job that comes available including torture because you will have to have a couple of years of lab work before you are taken seriously. Most researchers are not taken seriously because they have no knowledge under their belt and will perform any task available to them to move foward. Even if that includes the mundane task of watching a rodents face cry in pain when having deliberate pain inflicted upon them.Guess it feels lousy to earn a degree that no one takes seriously. So in order not to let oneself down they will take any job as a stepping stone.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    ocean17 In addition to today’s previous post… “it makes more sense to use computer modeling and already existing research and data to “extrapolate downward” human pain pathways. 1. Name a single model available for studying the neurobiology of human pain. If you can’t then you can’t say we should use a computer model. Even models of wellunderstood phenomena electric fields for instance often produce false data when used to test new theories. 2. Do you actually think you can use a model that’s based on partial understanding of a system in order to study parts of the system that are unknown? 3. What the heck is “extrapolate downward human pain pathways” supposed to mean? Give an exampleyou want to figure what type of conclusion based on what type of information? Oh and if you hope for anyone to take you seriously why don’t you stop intentionally misspelling the name of everyone who disagrees with you yes I’ve seen you do this to others before.

  • maureen says:

    Kalama You are right about one thingour discussion has pretty much ended.I do take into account what science has done on a positive note. However I refer to the practices that continue that have no justification.I agree some television harm childrenand that is why they have parents to filter out the television their children watch. I could also say the computer and it goes back to my previous statement.My cat has let me know that she was in pain when she had an abcess under her skin and when I picked her up she let me know. My dog now is suffering from a bladder infection and I knew it before it got severe I could see it in her face she was uncomfortable. But back to the rodent issueharming any animal so it will show you the pain in their facial expressions serves what purpose? You still have failed to answer thatand I have read all your replies. I mean so okay you now know that they are in mild to moderate pain but that is all who knowsYOU. If you were say to study them to compare them to human beings it still has no point considering we can speak up. The drugs are not missed in clinical trials because when they treat people with various meds some people have the adverse reactions so they have become not worthy or useful and should no longer tried. Take a look at the drug industry it is worse now than ever it seems as everyone has the so called “Magic Bullet” or they would not continue testing on animals. Face it without the taxpayers money there would only be a few relevant scientists that may come up with actual cures and stop this demonstration of madness It is a shame to think our society has become so merciless that greed takes the form of success. The more money you have the more backers you have that allows animals to perish without having any basis or sound facts.I still do not see a point in studying the facial expressions rodents will have for nurses and caregivers to better understand mild to moderate painthat has been part of their job training is to be able to distinguish when you cut yourself people generally squint their eyes and pucker their lips alittle that indicates pain some others actually say OUCH. So even though you state your intentions are not to hurt the mice you would have to in order to see their facial expressions when on the other hand you could look straight into a persons face and be able to tell if their in pain.The sad and true fact here is that if your lab doesn’t find something to study youyour ceo and fellow researchers would be out of a job.

  • ocean17 says:

    kalimpa you are just grandstanding the issues. there is no way to justify this barbaric and sadistic torture of mice and other animals in the name of science. it doesn’t surprise me that you can’t seem to wrap yer head around this simple idea. “Is there something logically unsound about that statement? Does it require an example?” yes it does. you keep pretending that your sadistic and psychotic monster researchers are moral and even worse that these “junkscience” experiments have a definite purpose and are valid… you are just spewing unlogical disinformation. ..for example you like to engage this amazingly dull piece of glaring illogic experiments are valid because they are experiments by definition and… they are valid because they are experiments. this is beyond stupid my friend. there is no actual process nor point of these extremely cruel experiments that is these sadistic tortures performed upon innocent and sentient creatures though you like to pretend otherwise. and one more time… in case you missed it it makes more sense to use computer modeling and already existing research and data to “extrapolate downward” human pain pathways instead of performing unnecessary exceedingly cruel and barbaric junkscience torturevivisection and “extrapolating upward”. this is only commonsense.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    ocean17 maureen further down You asked me to “post some examples” to justify my statement “better recognize pain”. First that’s not even a quote. Second it wasn’t even a pointit was an example of a benefit that could come from the study. If as I’ve said many times the study was empirically sound Here’s the statement you were referring to “If you get nothing else out of this at least understand that one benefit of knowing how rats react to mild to moderate pain is that…researchers and caretakers will better be able to recognize pain and treat it so that rodents won’t needlessly suffer.” Let’s convert it into a domestic example that would mean the exact same thing “Knowing how to tell if you cat is in pain will make you better able to tell if your cat is in pain and take him to the vet promptly.” Is there something logically unsound about that statement? Does it require an example? Maureen Our discussion has pretty much ended but what I find most disappointing is that you focus solely on the negative aspects of science when there are plenty of positives. Every branch of science has caused some form of harm. I could decry the negative effect of television on children and how manipulating the media can subjugate people but I’d still have to recognize how TV has helped different cultures interact and give people knowledge regarding issues they never would have been aware of. The disparate drug effects that pop up usually are missed by human clinical trials so it’s unfair to blame the animal model. Additionally drugs in general are going to have side effects since there’s pretty much so thing as a magic bullet that only hits the exact target they’re aiming for. The most important thing to remember though is that even failure is success in that understanding what went wrong gives us a better understanding of human biology and makes it more likely that the next attempt will be better.

  • maureen says:

    KalamaIn this world of high technology one would think enough is enough with the animal testing. In the vain attempts to get me to understand I still see no need for further animal testing however I also cannot fault you for your belief.It frustrates me a great deal to see that animals are tortured in the name of sciencethere are medications on the market for examplethat the cure is worse than the disease.Animals are given high doses of medication to see how they tolerate itin most cases the animals are left to languish in pain no pain medication is given prolapsed rectums left protruding and bleeding because the meds given induced these reactions. Inhalers that when taken may cause glacomalung infectionsI will not name specific meds for I do not need a lawsuit. We can put a man in space but for some strange reason our gov’t feels the need to over expos monkeys to radiation in order to see what it does. And we all know it kills. If you look at VietnamU.S. soldiers were exposed to “agent orange” in Laos and came back with different neurological problems the Iraq war U.S. soldiers were exposed to nerve gases and came home with all kinds of problems one being deformed babies or still births. In this country alone we have tried to marry viruses to create one big germ warfare I indeed believe HIV was created by a research chemist and thought to be failed until it took 10 years to incubateand who was the first victims? ANIMALS. The IUD was implanted in people in Africawhen it first came outand many women died. The pill caused blood clots and took the lives of many women hereour food is full of growth hormones that are cancer causing not to mention antibiotics that when we get sick the germs have become antibiotic resistent. and this Kalama has all been done in the name of science. So you will have to excuse me if I have become INTOLERANT. There are sooooo many studies out there that serve no purpose to humansthe latest being over dosing mice to soythen killing them to see the adverse effects it had on thembefore feeding it to infants. but of course the makers of this soy milk will read”caution may have adverse reactions on small children” researchers develope these things and we the people are left trying them. Beagles are forced to inhale cigarette smoke to see the adverse reactions and if they get cancer first I have never seen a smoking Beagle and second cigarette smoke is ingested differently than in humansand lets not forget the popular reward systemstarve an animal of basic needs such as food and WATER to get them to do a study so a researcher can evaluate them. I could continue but I would fill this blog because as long as there are animals there will always be a researcher to find some other so called newer and improved and let us not forget advance medicine to experiment on. I wish you the best of luck but I still will not back up your studyWith all the pain in other countries from FAMINE and the increase in homelessness here in the U.S. I wish you would research a way to help eliminate that. That would clearly deserve the NOBEL prize. Sincerely Maureen

  • ocean17 says:

    kalampa get off yer soapbox. nothing you have stated here makes a lick of sense the whiny tone of some of your posts leave little to the imagination. i asked you to post relevant data examples andor justifications for your tedious paperthin statements. yet you fail to recognize the sadistic nature of these “experiments” your lockstep and hopelessly redundant justifications and ignorant excuses only show that you cannot fathom the subject that you pretended to know so much about. you are just immersing this discussion in cheap storebought “junkscience” conclusions and unthinkable uncompassionate thick unforgiving speciesist doublethink.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    Ocean17 “my criticisms are far from nonspecific” Could you address a single point I’ve made and explain why it’s incorrect. Despite making two new posts you still haven’t done this yet.

  • ocean17 says:

    kalampa nothing you say can justify these cruel and sadistic tortures performed upon these sentient peaceful animals. and these “experiments” serve no useful purpose scientific or othewise you are just spewing tired hollowheaded and redundant disinformation. fact is it would make more sense to collect useful and “relevant” data from human subjects and use computer simulations to model human pain. grow a pair.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    Maureen If you actually do wish to understand the current state of affairs in animal models of pain I suggest you read the recent review at the link I posted below. On my PC it only seems to open in Internet Explorer so use that if you have any trouble. I assume you think I have no honor but you’ll just have to take my word for it that the file contains no form of virus. If you can read and understand the first two pages you will be given a chunk of our perspective on animal models of pain and how they relate to humans. Even research conducted by a PETAassociated animal rights activist was included in this review so in my opinion it’s very fair in pointing out flaws that many people disregard. I have no problem accepting others’ ethical objections to animal experimentation but I prefer that before it’s condemned outright that people at least attempt to understand the actual process and point of it. Until a person actually demonstrates understanding of basic concepts I don’t think they have the right to criticize the validity of experimentation. httpdl.dropbox.comu6960264Nature20Pain20Test20Review.pdf

  • ocean17 says:

    kalampa my criticisms are far from nonspecific thanks for playing the “junkscience” card you witless rejoinders are barbaric boorish and deficient. nothing you say makes sense and if i didn’t make myself clear before these “experiments” and actions are clearly the product of severely psychotic and sadistic monsters and confused individuals. as maureen has pointed out here your paperthin statements and bogus “explanations” are confused and inconclusive you prefer to stay in a shadowy world of faked morals mindnumbingly dull excuses and fake justifications.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    “As you say no researcher would not implant a medical devise into a human without being confident that is has a GOOD chance of working and be relatively safe….you can try and validate research all you wantstudies are now showing Premarin can cause cancer” What a terrible example. Premarin was approved in 1942 long before current clinical testing standards had been implemented. In addition Premarin has carried a warning that it may cause cancer since 1976. Hardly new and hardly surprising considering that premarin like most extracts is a mixture of poorly characterized compounds. The FDA still endorses shortterm use of premarin as two long recent studies have indicated that it both “works as a treatment and is relatively safe” in that context. So how exactly did that contradict my statement that doctors won’t use things unless they believe it will work and be relatively safe? “And the horrific way these beautiful animals are treated to get this productin the name of science of course.” No that’s not done in the name of science…that’s done by Big Pharma in the name of maximizing profit while trying to help women. It’s not scienceit’s industry. Science would be figuring out why it causes cancer or figuring out a safer treatment not running a factory massproducing it. “Your research will prove to be no more enlightening than that of all other testing that has been proven invalid.” What universe are you living in? Maybe you missed how animalproduced insulin was vital to the survival of herds of people until scientists learned how to synthesize it. Maybe you missed how the basic function of neurons was first determined using a squid which laid the foundation for current treatments for human disorders like deepbrain stimulators for Parkinson’s. Maybe you actually don’t know anything and simply believe whatever supports your ethics without understanding any of the facts regarding the issue. What about all the in vitro research that has been found to be nonapplicable to humans? Why aren’t you crying about that? Erroneous conclusions are made using all methods of research. That’s the major drawback of not being omniscient. Imagine studying lightning before electricity was understood. You could probably make some accurate observations but there’s no way you could fully understand it so the chance of making conclusions that are accurate from a primitive pointofview but not from one where electricity is understood is relatively high. “What I do not understand is what benefit do you think I would get out of knowing how rodents react to mild to moderate pain.” Not that I haven’t already laid this out in excruciating detail already but let’s say you eventually get arthritis diabetes painful terminal cancer or any of a number of varieties of neuropathic pain. The treatments you would receive for your pain would likely have been validated on animals which in many cases is directly applicable to humans but not always. Using facial expressions as a guide less animals would be used and they’d be subject to lesser degrees of pain compared to current standard models. In simple terms less animals will be hurt to prove the treatment for your pain is effective. “do not be so coy as to believe Doctors have not removed the wrong part of ones anatomy” I never said doctors don’t make mistakes. You said I’d read your xray wrong and then remove your good lung in order to see how long it takes you to die. All I said is that scenario makes no sense you can’t intentionally make a mistake…it’s not a mistake if it’s intentional. Other than that the scenario is absurd. Reading the xray wrong could happen. Removing a good lung intentionally would not. “P.S. Animals whiskers be it a catmouse or otherwise are receptors…..” What’s the point of this statement. Ruffini endings and Pacinian corpuscles are touch receptors hair cells are sound receptors and help you keep your balance and photoreceptors detect light. On top of that olfactory receptors detect volatile chemicals and proprioceptors tell you the position of your body parts. So whiskers are sensory organs. How exactly did this apply to anything? And technically they aren’t receptors they are just hairs that activate touch receptors in the skin of the rat cat etc.

  • maureen says:

    P.S. Animals whiskers be it a catmouse or otherwise are receptors…..

  • maureen says:

    Is Kalama short for KALAMADY? Out of the mouth of a researcher.As you say no researcher would not implant a medical devise into a human without being confident that is has a GOOD chance of working and be relatively safe. Did you not just hear yourself.And you can try and validate research all you wantstudies are now showing Premarin can cause cancer for those of you that do not know what that is it is horse urine.And the horrific way these beautiful animals are treated to get this productin the name of science of course. Blinding Rats and Rabbits with bleach and other corrosive products that continually produce the same results as they have for generations have wasted my hard earned money.The blinding and burning skinin the name of science. I am experiencing low levels of pain just reading this garbage you are trying to get me to believe.Your research will prove to be no more enlightening than that of all other testing that has been proven invalid.And I never said anything about pain disorders I simply stated that you should do research on people with pain ie any pain moderate or severe regardless of their disease being cancer for one.As I have said more testing with no results. And after you there will be another researcher that thinks he or she can do it betteronly to come up with the same inconclusive answers.Just another way to call this In the name of science. So tell me Kalama when your research comes up short will you post it on this blog also or just slowly fade away….What I do not understand is what benefit do you think I would get out of knowing how rodents react to mild to moderate pain. Let me assure you it would be of no benefit to me.If you weren’t experimenting on them I am sure rodents would not need to suffer needlessly.It would benefit me if you like your ceo and head researcher would experiment on yourselves to get a more accurate study.And please do not be so coy as to believe Doctors have not removed the wrong part of ones anatomy.It happens all the time.I knew someone that had a diseased lung and the good one was removed.accident or not. Do I need to say he died.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    Ocean17 Instead of tossing out nonspecific blanket criticisms that don’t address any one particular thing I’ve said why not address one specific aspect and tell me why you think I’m wrong. Us “pretend scientists” deal with issues in a pointbypoint mannernot by flinging about random rhetoric. What doesn’t make sense? When did I ever suggest rodent research required them to experience “excruciating pain” considering I’ve repeatedly pointed out that’s something we generally don’t want. How does being able to identify if rats are in lessthanexcruciating pain based on their facial expressions not make us better able to recognize if they’re in pain? As far as I’m concerned the only person here guilty of what you’re accusing me of is you.

  • ocean17 says:

    yikes! you don’t need to catalog and do “research” when rodents are in excruiating pain such as presented here inflicted by sadistic and psychotic individuals that like to pretend that they are scientists. you are just mouthing the words nothing you say here makes any sense. kalampha “better recognize pain” geeze..i hope you don’t really believe that maybe you could post some examples or back up your flat and tedious statements.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    What question about pain in rodents are you referring to? The statement regarding rats being stoic was to point out that unless you REEAAAAALLLYYY hurt them BAD it’s hard to tell if they’re in pain. No one myself or other scientists has any interest in hurting a rat REEEAAAAALLY badly. In fact the majority of scientists except for those researching pain disorders and their causes would prefer it if their rats were NEVER in pain. So I’m a researcher and rats only give us clear signs of pain when in agony which we don’t want them to be in. I for one have in five years of research only heard a rat squeak once when I accidentally pinched his tail. If I don’t want my rats to suffer and they don’t squeak unless they’re experiencing horrible pain how can I tell if they’re experiencing a lower level of pain? That’s the type of thing this study was hoping to make clearerand that’s what you don’t understand. If you get nothing else out of this at least understand that one benefit of knowing how rats react to mild to moderate pain is that in STUDIES THAT ARE NOT ABOUT PAIN DISORDERS researchers and caretakers will better be able to recognize pain and treat it so that rodents won’t needlessly suffer.

  • maureen says:

    Kalama I have a question for you no better yet a quote from you”It’s not that simple with rodentsrats are very stoic and only vocalize in response to sudden excruciating pain” Did that not just answer your question about pain in rodents?so since we now know that rodents are not of the human species and how they feel pain is actually very different from usthen there is no need to continue with this so called research UNLESS you have such a tortured mind that needs reassurance.Now with that out of the way are you sure your research is about rodents or are you using this blog to research our comments.If you want to detect PAIN why don’t you visit the video on chinese fur farms that should set you straight about pain. Along with research inflicting pain on rodents you could get a real education watching helpless animals at the hands of their captors on a fur farmthat should show you how excruciating pain is.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    Maureen Not a single one of your examples has anything to do with anything I’ve said. No one wants or intends for the information from this study to be used for things like that. Instead of being so angry why not read and understand what I’ve actually said? If your responses have nothing to do with the points I’ve made then you aren’t adding anything to the discussion.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    Maureen I’m pretty sure you don’t have any understanding of the study itself or anything I’ve said. “If you stroked a feather on the bottom of my foot would I not laugh a little from being tickled?” I have no idea what point you’re trying to make here…understanding how a person would react to that is practically builtin. No one is trying to figure out what a human would do based on the mice so I don’t really see any relevance in this scenario. “…before YOU researchers believe there is no correlation between human pain and animal pain?” There IS correlation between human pain and pretty much every other animal with a similar nervous system. Nociceptors are activated and send signals that may or may not be gated in the spinal cord which can trigger the perception of pain or release endogenous opioids upon reaching the brain etc etc. The same local anesthetics can be used to block acute pain. NSAIDS like ibuprofen will inhibit COX II in both humans and rats and suppress pain etc etc etc. “I know when I am in pain moderate or severe.” Again what point is this supposed to make? No one wants to use rats to see HOW YOU FEEL. In the cases where a study actually involves pain they’re trying to figure out either WHAT BIOLOGICAL PROCESSES ARE INVOLVED IN DEVELOPMENT OF ABNORMAL PAIN in order to figure out new treatments or see if TREATMENTS FOR PAIN ARE EFFECTIVE. It’s kind of hard to tell that since unlike you rodents can’t tell you how they feel. “the nurses certainly did not bring a mouse in their pockets to stick a pin in them and ask me if that hurts” Neither I nor any scientist involved in pain research would ever EVER conceive of doing something like that. It serves no purpose makes absolutely no sense and most importantly has nothing to do with the point of the study or anything I’ve said. Your fantastical interpretation of the goal of the research has no basis in reality and until you can actually understand what’s going on do you really have the right to spit venom and even attempt to make points about it? It’s like criticizing the design of an engine without knowledge of combustion engineering aesthetics or the technical limitations of the time. “If I had cancer in my left lung you probably would look at the Xrays wrong and remove the right good lung to see how long I would live.” k this is totally offthewall and illogical to boot. First if I intended to remove your good lung to study you I’d need to read the xray correctly. Otherwise I’d end up removing your bad lung and you’d be saved. I can’t ACCIDENTALLY screw up the xray in order to INTENTIONALLY see how long it takes you to die. But anyways…how does this relate to anything? “could eliminate some of the testing but of course once again I DID NOT HEAR ALL OF THEM” That’s right that’s exactly what I mean. It’s like controlledatmosphere killing of chickens in that it will be beneficial to the animals but won’t end practices involved. The results of this study if empirically sound could decrease the number of pain studies that are required to do basic research and test treatments for pain. It could also alter the current methods so that animals would be subjected only to mild pain since these responses would be seen at lower thresholds than the signs that people currently look for. But take solace from the fact that no one is doing any of the absolutely pointless imaginary experiments that you believe them to be doing so technically ALL of those experiments aren’t going on. “Why don’t you study people with terminal illnesses that have a high rate of pain and observe them” First you need to realize that you can’t test everything on whoever just happens to be terminally ill. If you’re trying to treat pain caused by diabetic neuropathy what good would treating someone with cancerrelated pain do? They have entirely different biological bases. We do test on patients in the target population. Also the CEO and head researcher of the group I work with both test new treatments on themselves when possible as part of the finetuning process despite federal regulations against it. Regardless of that no doctor is willing to put a medical device into a human without being confident that it will have a good chance of working and be relatively safe. Biomedical implants don’t just magically come off the presses perfectly designed and implant themselves in people in the best manner possible. “I really think you believe this crap.” Of course I believe this crapall the careful and thoughtful work I have done in this field has successfully moved on to clinical trials and performed as expected in humans…what possible validation could I ask for beyond that?

  • maureen says:

    Whom are you trying to convince Kalama? If you stroked a feather on the bottom of my foot would I not laugh a little from being tickled? How much more needless suffering be inflicted on defenseless animals before YOU researchers believe there is no correlation between human pain and animal pain? If this is to do me a favor then please don’t I know when I am in pain moderate or severe. I also knew it after I had surgery the nurses certainly did not bring a mouse in their pockets to stick a pin in them and ask me if that hurts but I could certainly see it hurt the mouse.So please if you are trying to convince me I have a bridge to sell you.I really think you believe this crap. If I had cancer in my left lung you probably would look at the Xrays wrong and remove the right good lung to see how long I would live.To go one step further you said decreasing the ambiguity could eliminate some of the testing but of course once again I DID NOT HEAR ALL OF THEM. This is just another way to get the states to fund ridiculous research AGAIN.Why don’t you study people with terminal illnesses that have a high rate of pain and observe them it would cost very little and you might be able to study human pain better than comparing “MICE TO MEN” Then I might listen to you.

  • ocean17 says:

    animal torture and sadistic junscience vivsection “research” does not equal a valid experiment. geeze. in any case this in no way validates nor does it prove that researchers have ethics. the dull obtuse speciesist doublethink that is presented here is diffuse and amazing and amazingly incoherent and irrelevant.

  • Randy says:

    Allison Since people use dogs and cats in experiments I don’t really see your point.

  • Allison says:

    just becuse mice are smaller than dogs and cats dosn’t mean they can be expirimented on!

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    Mike That depends on the nature of the experiment and in applicable cases the researcher’s ethics. The most common and beneficial application of this information if it ends up being determined to be empirically sound is in postoperative pain management. For instance when humans undergo surgery we monitor their level of discomfort by directly asking and observing behavior and choose drugs and dosages accordingly in order to ease pain with the least number of sideeffects aka you don’t get prescription painkillers that make you vomit hallucinate develop an addiction etc. for relatively minor pain. It’s not that simple with rodents. Rats are very stoic and only vocalize in response to sudden and excruciating pain. Likewise other easily observable behavioral signs are also not present at less than unacceptably high levels of pain. In fact the generally used methods for detecting if a rodent is in pain often involves attempting to inflict pain with nonpainful stimuliand as such these are generally reserved for pain studies since intentional infliction of pain is generally frowned upon outside of pain research. Additionally if lab techs are able to recognize suffering rodents researchers can be alerted to treat terminate or expedite data collection from a suffering animal whereas currently chronic studies may leave them unnoticed for months. In regard to researcher ethics a publicized pain indicator scale showing easily observable signs of pain would make it more likely for researchers themselves to note if their subjects are in pain and increase the likelihood they will empathize with them. This would also increase the likelihood that they’ll be motivated to treat pain when it occurs. At the moment there’s no shortage of researchers who may neglect to treat postop pain simply due to the fact that they aren’t aware of the degree of suffering they’ve induced. In regards to pain research itself if the signs are consistent unnecessarily extreme pain induced in current methods and some of the methods themselves may be minimized or avoided altogether. For instance one simple test the Von Frey Test tests for hyperalgesia by tapping it on the sole of the foot with a thin fiber. If the inflicted pain is bad enough the rat will sharply withdraw his paw and lick it. However the rat may suppress the reflex and generally will undergo many painful yet subthreshold stimuli prior to exhibiting the response. The facial expressions may likely be exhibited at an earlier stage in the testing and thus reduce the number of times pain is inflicted on the rat and also the maximum intensity it is subjected to. Also spontaneous pain is usually measured by placing a rodent in an environment that exacerbates it’s pain so that the chance of observing spontaneous behaviors is increasedeasily observable and consistent signs of pain could eliminate a test like that altogether. Unnecessary experiments may also be reduced by clearing up some of the ambiguity that arises when considering whether a test is monitoring hyperalgesia allodynia or some other painrelated phenomenon. At the moment multiple discrete tests must be carried out to examine each one and decreasing the ambiguity could eliminate some of them.

  • maureen says:

    Dear Kalama Halamezad You must be one of the experimentersdear child do you not understand we can speak up if something hurts and not to mention the PAINFUL expression on my face like now to your ignorancewhen I do injure myself. I do not need a mouse to tell me I’m in pain!!!!!!! Are you up to having your feet burned or sit you in a tub of hot water so I can see the expression on your face to see if it hurts. HOW RIDICULOUS.

  • maureen says:

    I do not know how in the world they can do a study on a pain scale with any animal we are human beings and feel pain so differently that is we can hurt ourselves and control our pain where animals could die from the same injury. what next!!! my scientific evaluation says ” they must be nuts and we should do a LOBOTOMY” on them to see if we can correct their IGNORANCE.

  • Mike Quinoa says:

    Kalama Okay so now researchers can recognize when a mouse feels pain. Does that mean when they see these visual clues in mice they’ll immediately terminate the experiment to spare the mice from further suffering?

  • W.P. says:

    This is so wrong….these so called scientists are telling our youth it is okay to “hurt” animals…. I have to have HOPE that one day this will not be allowed…

  • Manic Monkey says:

    Yeah after that whole plague thing I sort of don’t feel bad for mice or rats.

  • ocean17 says:

    OMFG. that is insane. i hold precious little hope for the inhumane race especially when most people consider this nothing more than business as usual or worse yet spend far too much time pretending not to care… or notice. and those are not sane people obviously they are not making this a better world but only a living hell for those poor innocent sentient creatures.

  • lisa says:

    Any normal sane person would know that all animals know and feel pain these experiments are disgusting and inhumane. Im no expert on mice and rats as never had them so didnt really know much about them untill my eldest daughter said she had got 2 rats from a rescue center and wanted me to meet them my reaction ewwww they are rats well i went to see them and fell in love with them amazing animals extremely intelligent and adores human contact they just want to snuggle up beside you wash and groom you one of them wouldt leave my youngest daughter alone kept wanting to snuggle up in her hair followed her around everywhere. To think others like them are subjected to these barbaric experiments is just terrible. Any form of animal testing or experiments should be in an ideal world wiped out theres no need for it anymore.

  • Kalama Halamezad says:

    The point of the experiment was not to see “if” mice feel pain. I doubt there’s a single researcher on the planet who isn’t 100 aware that rodents are completely capable of experiencing it. If they thought otherwise there’d be little point for all the local anesthetics and pain killers lab animals are given. If you read the articles you’d see the point was to learn how to identify whether or not a mouse is in painnot just for the purpose of getting additional data in pain studies but also in order to give people a guide that can help then tell if their mice are suffering. For all the complaining done here in regards to science you’d think some of you would recognize the benefit that lab mice will receive if lab care workers are trained to recognize these signs so that animals won’t be left to suffer needlessly. For the first time mice finally have a “voice” they can use to let researchers know what they’re experiencing so that it can be addressed when causing pain is not the goal which is the majority of the time.

  • tessy says:

    so sad! poor mice!

  • Kate & Az says:

    OMG!!!! We feel so upset about this! Do us humans in the year 2010 need any further clarification that animals mice feel pain? This is heart renching in this day and age why is it still allowed to go on? These creatures along with every other were put here to live who the hell has the right to take it away from them!

  • Susan K. says:

    Mice are indeed truely ‘feeling’ animals. Although one would not like to typically discover this through an infestation of mice in one’s house an unplugged ‘open’ pipe leading into my basement brought a family of these critters into my living establishment some time ago. Several traps were set to ensnare capture and kill many of the mice but not all as it would seem could be extrapolated from the premises!! As time wore on oddly and unexpectantly I developed a deep appreciation for the ‘cleverness’ and ‘intelligence’ of these little critters. After losing many ‘family’ members to the trap the mice have clearly learned to avoid them at all costs regardless of the ‘enticements’ I attempt to entreat them with. Short of fumigating a very toxic method I am not keen on to ‘eliminate’ them it would appear that I am stuck with the last ‘bitter’ few to the end??? The long and short of it all….not entirely sure how broken up about it I am!! Mice…. I have become a fan of your personality and intelligence. You are indeed an important species!!

  • Fay Yigit says:

    Please advise the sourcesources of information in your article re AVA and live export. I am concernced regarding the reportedly bizzare practices that are exposed and feel that as an objective reader I must consider the facts. I would like someone from your organisation to advise whether this is first hand information and its source as I empathise and am considering some lobby action on this matter and would like to quote your article. I am a Victorian activist for animal rights and have no knowledge of such things. Thankyou

  • Leslie Hathaway says:

    It is time to stop torturing rats and mice now…. No one has the right to do these horrific procedures on them without any kind of pain medicine or medicine to calm them down. These humans that had the audacity to do this should be experimented on in the same way. Maybe then this would stop. It is disgusting and needs to be stopped immediately. Thank You Leslie Hathaway

  • Kris says:

    Why would anyone even doubt that a senstive and sweet mammal wouldn’t show an expression on their face with pain? I mean come on it’s obvious! This kind of research is horrid and disgusts me! I hope there are others out there who think the same and believe that these expiriments are a waste of.. everything!

  • S. McIntyre says:

    Should we now do the same thing on humans to see if they experience pain? Didn’t we already know that? God they’re all insane… They might as well test on plants because it’s about the same correlation from rodents to humans… the actual productdrug testing is useless and a flat out fraud at this point… How can they say a test is worth anything if they are wondering if an animal feels pain? A bunch of rubbish all it is…

  • Kay says:

    This is the sick person in desperate need of psychiatric help httpwww.psych.mcgill.cafacultymogil.htm Anything for money. Jeffrey Mogil profits from torture. He stuffs his bank account with blood money. Most serial killers start this way.

  • Kay says:

    The dangerous sociopathic person responsible for this study is Jeffrey Mogil of McGill University in Canada and colleagues

  • Caroline Kropka says:

    Dear god! Are we so clueless that we need to hurt these mice to see if animals can show pain??

  • Caty says:

    we humansare some horible creatures ….