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i agree with kenady and if i was a guy i would rather be a vegitarian than take a drug!!!

Ana Great post overall. One thing to comment on though I wouldn't suggest supporting Friends of Animals. They are incredibly ineffective. They claim to be abolitionists but they walk in lockstep with HSUS with their dogmatic opposition to direct action. Maya Welfare reforms do not make lives better for the animals currently imprisoned to be slaughtered for food. It's not like these corporations cut down the battery cages and immediately move the animals into the larger cage meaning the floor of large building upon agreeing to "cagefree" reforms. The change begins if it even begins at all with future animals used for food usually years later. Do not be deceived welfare reform does not do anything meaningful for the animals currently being slaughtered. These marginal changes only come in the future. Meanwhile we as abolitionist animal rights advocates reject such reformist strategies as a waste of time. As more and more people become vegetarian and subsequently vegan the animal exploitation industries will reform themselves to stay profitable. It is a zerosum game. All of the time and money spent on welfare reform is time and money that could have been spent promoting veganism. For it is veganism which strikes the roots and shifts the paradigm from animal use to animal rights. Veganism will help bring down this unjust system. You can argue that it is hopeless to advocate abolition because you think it will never be acheived. If we took your fatalistic view you would be right we would never achieve abolition. Our society teaches us that it is moral to use living sentient nonhumans as resources for food clothing experimentation entertainment and other things. Most do not question this point. We must continue to educate people that they do have a choice. They don't have to support the use of animals as property. Considering the fact that we can be completely healthy on a 100 plantbased vegan diet and can choose this alternative killing an animal for food is completely unnecessary unjust and wrong. We can eat a wide variety of plantbased foods wear many different nonanimal fibers such as cotton conduct nonanimal product tests and medical experiments which are also more valid and reliable and support nonanimal forms of entertainment like circuses without nonhuman animals such Cirque du Soleil and view animals in their natural habitats instead of zoos. I think once people are confronted with the vegan message they may initially fight against it because it is in opposition to mainstream thinking. However if they critically analyze what we are saying I do not think they will reject it. I believe they will make changes in their life and eventually adopt our position. If we want to shift the paradigm from animal use to animal rights we must never give up or compromise. Above all this is an issue of justice and justice does not demand reform it demands abolition!

Maya With all due respect none of these cows are going to be treated like a pet horse and in many circumstances it is not so good being a companion horse since many are sold for slaughter. In fact they will not be treated well at all. Try to examine the fact that this is a PR ploy and nothing more. So do you think that by the time 2012 comes around some changes will be implemented?? Not if it costs these monstrous companies any money. But what does this all serve? Not the animals who are to be slaughtered anyway. That is an animal welfare stand these incremental changes are only there to help those who want to continue eating animals it is not a means to encourage people to stop eating them. Read Gary Francione look at FARM Farm Animal Reform Movementabolitionist Friends of Animals and Vegan Outreach for example. Wasting time and money getting minimal changes is absurd. These animals are still going to receive a horrible violent death no matter their previous state. There is no space to give animals on these factory farms. They are drugged and abused in order to sell their flesh cheaply it is not about what is best for the animals. Again your negative tone to Brandon and in general about veganism is counterproductive and quite frankly disconcerting. The animals suffer not you so it is easy to dictate conditions for those that will be murdered. I do not agree with you at all. How to change minds...education and example. It will not happen as you take them to a store to purchase organic flesh. HSUS is a welfare group for you they condone this. The groups I named don't so I support them. Peace to you and the animals who suffer as both factory farmed and organic flesh is consumed.

ana i will stand by "ineffectual" by any standard in relation to rights but particularly if welfarists are to be put offside. You speak of fighting for the bulls freedom but freedom to do what exactly eat grass and die slowly. Not a huge difference either way besides speed of death. You'd rather see no bulls than exploited bulls what would they say about that? Would the slaves have elected to be freed if it ultimately meant starving? Think about it from a loafing around no work perspective as opposed to hard physical labour. I don't see viewing animals as property having much influence. Freedom isn't affecting the game hunters perception of their preylegal hunting that is. They don't have legal ownership of say a deer prior to killing it. Deer are free irrespective of farmed animals being "owned". With similar results. During the middle ages they burned witchesfairly loose defintion of witch and they've burn't more than the odd heretic along the way I don't think animals have been singled out to be abused. It's quite amazing what people will believe with no basis in fact. The justice system was farcical if you survived you were a witch and subsequently killed and if you died you were innocent. But dead. There's a win. Sure there are homeless people etc I guess it's because no one thought of abolishing them? One would think antiwar protestors had a fairly good point. Not exactly welfarist ideology but it hasn't stopped war. What abolitionists are up against is that there is no widespread feeling that animals are worthy of the same rights as humans. I can't say welfare is universal either but an awful lot closer.

Rojo The only thing that is certain is death. But again I will state that the abolitionists fghting against slavery didn't care what their detractors said about their movement they simply continued forward and did not digress from their vision of freeing the slaves. Many said the same as you it will never happen but it did. The abolitionists broke federal laws but were steadfast in their convictions. As abolitionists Brandon and I do not prolong the other animals' misery quite the contrary. By appeasing the masses with these "happy meals" there exists no incentives to change diets or attitudes. Supposedly the animals are "happy" so what's the problem. Brandon and I explained it well we are not concerned with a few moments reprieve from ultimate slaughter we are opposed to their oppression and the injustices committed against them. The imprisonemnt of animals has gone on far too long. If you were a bull I think you would rather I fight for your freedom than that you have a grass meal before your very violent death. It is abolitionists that made changes for human society not those that capitulated to the demands of the oppressors. BTW 2012 is the supposed date for cratefree conditions for pigs. Who is prolonging what? Who is to say industries won't change again. This a PR ploy from these animal abusingkilling enteprises. The HSUS and others of their ilk are sleeping with the enemy and everyone is giddy and smiling while animals continue to suffer and be subject to unspeakably violent deaths. The slaves were property and thus an investment in their businesses cotton tobacco rice. There were also blacks that had black slaves and there were whites that worked side by side with their slaves in the fields. There were also "owners" that taught them to read and write. In the North blacks were attending schools and there certainly were those that had attended colleges. These welfare laws for animals are both soft and very rarely enforced. If a judge sees fit he might fine someone a few dollars for having brutally slaughtered someones' cat or dog. As long as animals are treated like property what chance have they in a society that brutalizes them and feels it is their right. Rights does not mean weak laws it means being givien the right to go on living without fear of being made into a coat or a meal. The welfarists have accomplished what??? There are still homeless cats and dogs slaughtered in kill shelters rodeos continue to terrorize and break the bones of calves horses bulls. During the Medieval Age 10661500 animals were put on trial. Absurd sure but just another way to abuse animals. They are property but they can still be put on trial and sentenced?? Yes it happened. Human stupidity and cruelty at best. By describing us as being "an ineffectual fringe group" you have already judged us by your standards not ours. I believe I am effective and many social movements were commenced by the very few who saw a different vision. Maya you have displayed a give up attitude and that does not benfit the animals one bit. Always remember it is the animals that are suffering and being killed. Your generalizations about people knowing PETA's issues is your conjecture not a fact. Most people I have met don't know. I have introduced others to veganism but with lots of encouragement. But I also am very tenacious and have great faith in what I do. Take a look at Vegan Outreach and read about their efforts and successes. Peace